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BATTLE AX

Articles Posted: 4  Links Seeded: 0
Member Since: 6/2007  Last Seen: 6/10/2010

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No Man, No Problem? I Disagree

Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:22 AM EDT
science, sex, pregnancy, motherhood, moms, dan-quayle, single-moms, murphy-brown, knock-yourself-up, louise-sloan
By Battle Ax

Louise Sloan's new book on "motherhood"

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Go ahead. Call me old-fashioned. I can take it. I just might be proud of it. And, for the record, I always knew it would come to this.

A writer named Louise Sloan has come out with a book, part confession, part instruction: "Knock Yourself Up: A Tell-All Guide to Becoming a Single Mom."

Single moms are a good thing now?

Yes, I remember Murphy Brown and Dan Quayle. Much smarter than anyone gave him credit for, I thought our good old veep was right when he said we shouldn't be glamorizing single parenthood. Parenthood is just about the hardest job in the world. No one should take it on alone. And, no, not even if you have enough money.

Why not?

A scientist might tell you how the human race has been so successful because we're good at mixing of the genes of unrelated adults. A woman who "knocks herself up" (as Sloan puts it) with the sperm of an anonymous donor is, yes, likely mixing her genes with those of an unrelated adult. But is she mixing in anything else? Point of view? Style of parenting? The comfort of a second person to look at and say, "That's where I come from"? I'm thinking now of kids I knew growing up whose fathers had died in the war, before they ever got to know them. I remember that longing of theirs for that second part of their story – the way they'd say to their moms, their aunts and uncles: "Tell me again about my father."

Single moms by choice: What are you going to say when your kids say that?

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  • Public Discussion (174)
Jump to discussion page: 1 2
Battle Ax

Sent this link to my sister who will probably think getting pregnant with no man involved is a great idea.

  • 2 votes
Reply#1 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:27 AM EDT
Zeta Price

On some level, a man is always involved. Can you get a donor's DNA information these days?

  • 2 votes
#1.1 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:14 PM EDT
Tania Meredith

How can you look at the picture of her with her adorable little boy -- who is obviously loved!! -- and say there is anything wrong with this?

The only thing wrong here is Miss BattleAx telling women they can't make their own decisions.

  • 10 votes
#1.2 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:27 PM EDT
PolitiChris

I agree with Tania. People, before you comment, click on the link and look at the picture.

  • 5 votes
#1.3 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:31 PM EDT
Matthew Brennan

That is a wonderful picture. I don't see how Battle Ax's article challenges the right and joy of a mother to love her child... single or married. She's not against single motherhood, but perhaps against making single motherhood a goal to be pursued. If you find yourself there... wonderful. Love your child, but all the single moms I know want and need help. Neighborhoods/villages are great, but eventually you feel like a bit of a drag. You feel like you're always asking for other people's help. Having a mate is ready made assistance.

  • 11 votes
#1.4 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:36 PM EDT
Mom From Long Island

I first got pregnant at 18. I didn't do it on purpose, but it sure was a choice to carry the baby to term. Then I gave that baby up. Why? Because I decided I didn't want to marry the father.

That was the right decision (not to marry) but not a day goes by I don't regret not raising the baby by myself.

Louise Sloan, I send this out to you (through tears): YOU GO GIRL!!

  • 12 votes
#1.5 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:40 PM EDT
Jason Ford

The only thing wrong here is Miss BattleAx telling women they can't make their own decisions.

Could you please point out where she said this?

  • 12 votes
#1.6 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:00 PM EDT
cathy-clown

not a day goes by I don't regret not raising the baby by myself.

This just breaks my heart.

  • 2 votes
#1.7 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:47 AM EDT
neelsn

Anyone who thinks they can look at a snapshot and tell anything about the relationship of this mother and child now, or in the future is on thin ice. I could take a shot of Charles Manson smiling and looking at peace with the world. For the sake of discussion, I read a column by William Raspberry a couple years ago wherein he called fatherless homes the major problem in the Black community.

  • 8 votes
#1.8 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:42 AM EDT
pseudonihilist

1.2:

The only thing wrong here is Miss BattleAx telling women they can't make their own decisions.

Freedom is a fine thing, especially when society is left to pick up the pieces.

  • 2 votes
#1.9 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:46 PM EDT
allgood2

The problem with the argument, is Battle Axe's allusion to the reason and circumstances of why.

I'm thinking now of kids I knew growing up whose fathers had died in the war, before they ever got to know them. I remember that longing of theirs for that second part of their story – the way they'd say to their moms, their aunts and uncles: "Tell me again about my father."

War, accidental death, even abandonment are very, very different circumstances, in terms of creating wonderment, than deliberate pursuit of a child while being single. Kids in those circumstances wonder about their fathers, because 'a father was suppose to be there'.

I understand that the separation of biology versus parental intent can be just as unsatisfying as determining the difference between manslaughter vs murder. But, requiring sperm to get pregnant just isn't the same thing as requiring a male to raise your children with; and its a combination of bad logic, philosophical belief, and circumstantial bias that allows the conclusion to be readily drawn, accepted, and remain unanalyzed.

It's an emotional plea, that's very well set-up, conjuring images of millions of children around the world with bewildered looks, asking "Who's my pa?" But its the similar argument used by those who state all children of adoption will eventually want to know their biological parents. It's simply not true.

As to what single moms will say when their children ask them, "Tell me again about my father." Really, there are a million and one responses. It's not something that is going to stop every single mother in her tracks. It will give pause to those who didn't plan on doing it alone. But for those who did plan on raising children alone, or planned on raising children with a partner of the non-male variety, I'd say for a large number of the families, handling that question was also planned.

Is raising children with a partner better? Yes, absolutely, depending on the partner :) (How's that for absolute) But the benefits of planned parenthood can alleviate a number of the downsides of single parenting.

As a child of adoption, and raised in a single family home for most of my life, I can readily say, I've never given more than a casual thought to whom my biological father was. I don't harbor any ill will or anger, I just never really cared, wasn't looking for a different mixture of love and caring, or wondering about my biological make up. No flailing confidences. I am who I am, and his contribution, though appreciated, didn't and doesn't concern me; and I'm not that unusual.

Of course my statement is just as anecdotal as Battle Axe's but I think equating a two parent home to a good familial situation is just storytelling—a nice fairy tale of sorts. Good families come in all shapes and sizes, and yes even with single parents. So why not plan for it if that's what you want. Besides, sometimes pursuing what you want just makes you open to new things and situations. Two friends who decided to go it alone, both ended up in stable relationship—one during the eighth month of pregnancy and the other within a year and a half after having her baby girl.

  • 5 votes
#1.10 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:36 PM EDT
Reply
electricblanket

I was reading some poetry/prose by Saul Williams yesterday, and he wrote about the Holy Trinity of popular beliefs being fallacious, and the real Holy Trinity is Mother, Father and child.

Anyway, I wouldn't want to try to raise a child on my own.

  • 1 vote
Reply#2 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:00 PM EDT
beapluss

It takes a village, right?

  • 3 votes
#2.1 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:54 PM EDT
biggerthebetter

Many people have to raise children on their own due to death, abandonment, etc. What do we tell them? That their situation is unacceptable?

  • 5 votes
#2.2 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:35 PM EDT
Autumnhaiku

I'm all for the village idea....then you don't have to depend on the village idiot. ;)

  • 9 votes
#2.3 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:39 PM EDT
electricblanket

I'm not saying single-parenting is wrong, or unacceptable. Of course there are tragedies that force people into situations like this. Then there are people who choose to become parents alone. There are even some people who try to conceive to entrap their lover into marriage (I don't know how frequent this is, but I've heard people talking about it).

Parenting is tough no matter what. But yeah, it does take a man and a woman to create a child. I' not against homosexuals having/adopting children either.

But children do deserve to be provided for and cared for. It makes it hard for a single parent to both raise a child and work to pay for raising the child.

  • 2 votes
#2.4 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:57 PM EDT
Flo Kalman

The financial aspect is a good point. By the time my kid was 18, he'd gone through a quarter million dollars worth of Hot Pockets.

  • 7 votes
#2.5 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:04 PM EDT
biggerthebetter

I agree, electric blanket. It's tough - I have three and I'm married, and think I'd go nuts if I had to go it alone...but I also wouldn't want to tell someone else not to.

and Flo, lmao, in my house it's Toaster Scramblers!! I've funded half the school budget on the Boxtops for Education from those things.

  • 1 vote
#2.6 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:28 PM EDT
Reply
Cash

Why is this in the science section?

  • 2 votes
Reply#3 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:07 PM EDT
Ryan Stolte-Sawa

Obviously, you've never been artificially inseminated.

  • 10 votes
#3.1 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:11 PM EDT
Jason Ford

Obviously, you've never been artificially inseminated.

Not for a lack of trying however. :)

  • 9 votes
#3.2 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:13 PM EDT
TomPitysFools

Is that what all those recent "sex with robots" articles have been about, then?

  • 4 votes
#3.3 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:28 PM EDT
Ryan Stolte-Sawa

No, those are about having sex with my ex-boyfriend. Zing!

  • 16 votes
#3.4 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:35 PM EDT
Eric Atienza

Glad to see you back on the Vine.

  • 1 vote
#3.5 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:37 PM EDT
Battle Ax

Why is this in the science section?

I thought the insemination aspect of it justified putting it in Science. Where would you have me put it? Entertainment?

  • 4 votes
#3.6 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:33 PM EDT
TomPitysFools

Where would you have me put it?

In my office, one cannot get away with saying that while talking, even tangentially, about sex.

I don't know if I should be proud of Newsvine for not shooting the easy layup, or vaguely disappointed.

  • 3 votes
#3.7 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:24 PM EDT
Reply
Jason Ford

Raising kids is hard enough with two parents.

Two parents are better than one. There are obvious reasons when this is not or cannot be the case. Fathers provide benfits that mothers cannot and mothers provide benefits that fathers cannot which is why both of them raising a child is the best possible solution.

  • 10 votes
Reply#4 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:16 PM EDT
Matthew Brennan

The single mom road is a hard one. Evidently it is easier than trying to "become one" with an imbecile. Why make things work with a roaming dog when you can surround yourself with kids that won't challenge your life choices and government subsidies to keep you barely alive? Sorry for the harshess of that... but I think it is accurate in many cases. I'll be bold and say that the "single mom problem" is really a "men need to become men and stop living as perpetual teenagers" problem.

  • 10 votes
#5 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:18 PM EDT
Ryan Stolte-Sawa

Eh, I think it's also a "women need to learn to stand up for their right to have safe sex and abortions, or else probably shouldn't be having sex at all, for posterity" problem.

  • 15 votes
#5.1 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:27 PM EDT
biggerthebetter

I can understand a little of where you are coming from; with the divorce rate what it is, and the horrors of custody battles, and the constant complaints from spouses about child support, I can kind of understand the "go it alone" attitude.

  • 6 votes
#5.2 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:37 PM EDT
Matthew Brennan

Yeah, I think that things get really touch for people. I mean really tough. You find yourself surrounded by nothing but crappy choices. You take the "least" crappy one you can find.

I think that unselfishness can mend any painful situation. Men aren't being mentored to be unselfish. They are being mentored to take, take, take. Men need to stand up and take responsibility. I'm not letting the ladies off the hook, but most ladies would stay with a man who fought for them.

  • 8 votes
#5.3 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:02 PM EDT
kymlee

I agree with both of you here. Stolte-Sawa, I believe Gorby is speaking specifically about the boys who remain boys all of their life, sewing oats here and there...this is a common occurrence in economically disadvantaged areas. From what I can tell (and this is purely anecdotal) wealthier, educated folks tend to have a better handle on issues like birth control and a stronger since of self worth. This since of self worth is what enables them to be more selective about who they choose to bread with - this doesn't always mean they end up with the best partner but they are definitely smarter about birth control.

There is an epidemic of men raised by women who make excuses for not knowing how to be a man because their father was never around. They don't take care of their children and make a bunch of them with a bunch of different women, thus perpetuating the cycle. The flip side of this are those who were raised by their mothers or sisters or grandmothers, didn't know their fathers and decided that when they had children they would not be like their own fathers.

  • 4 votes
#5.4 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:11 PM EDT
Chasing

"men need to become men and stop living as perpetual teenagers"

Yes, in such cases, I would presume that what's worse than having such a father not be around, is to have the father be around. Not every father is going to be a good one - some are downright bad. Better a child, IMHO, be raised by a single well-meaning parent, than two, where one is a "perpetual teenager".

  • 7 votes
#5.5 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:55 PM EDT
Jason Ford

IMHO, be raised by a single well-meaning parent, than two, where one is a "perpetual teenager".

I think enough people have said that there are situations where a single parent is the better fit. It still doesn't negate the fact that two parents are better than one in most situations.

  • 7 votes
#5.6 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:58 PM EDT
Chasing

I think enough people have said that there are situations where a single parent is the better fit. It still doesn't negate the fact that two parents are better than one in most situations.

Well, send up a red balloon when anything is "enough", to let the rest of us know you don't need to hear it anymore, I guess? But you can't honestly tell me "most" situations without knowing what "most" consists of, though I'd suspect you're right. But what then of five parents? Is that something you condone?

  • 2 votes
#5.7 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:31 PM EDT
Jason Ford

But what then of five parents?

Personally, two was enough for me. I advocate for two parents, when possible, simply because men provide things women can't and women provide things men can't. There isn't a need for more than two. Keep in mind that these are all "in general" observations. I realize that not every situation fits these descriptions.

Is that something you condone?

This has nothing to do with what I condone. I am only pointing out what I believe to be the best situation for children. Right or wrong is irrelevant.

  • 1 vote
#5.8 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:36 PM EDT
Chasing

It does have to do with what you condone, if it has to do with what you believe, unless there's a discrepency between the two (is there?), although I don't know that I believe this "women can/men can't/vice versa" proposition, intuition aside. As has been said elsewhere, by others, children are resilient. From here, what next? Working Mothers? Stay-at-home Dads? Children have been raised in a variety of ways since the dawn of time, after all. They tend to turn out OK, it seems to me. I agree with you that, in perhaps most cases, having both a father and mother present is ("in general", as you say) best. But then so might living in the country, with a picket fence, and a live-in grandma. And so might being a millionare. Life is as life is, single mothers and all. And kids are as kids are - which is to say, mostly OK.

  • 5 votes
#5.9 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:19 PM EDT
Adam Hobson

But what then of five parents? Is that something you condone?

I'm completely in favor of clan and group marriages. ;-) Why should we assume there is only one love of our lives? Group marriages would also be far more stable economically, since more people would be contributing and the detriment of one member losing life or job is far less on the family as a whole.

  • 6 votes
#5.10 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:28 PM EDT
electricblanket

Then polygamy is a-ok in your opinion Adam?

    #5.11 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:39 PM EDT
    Adam Hobson

    Exactly!

    • 2 votes
    #5.12 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:51 PM EDT
    Adam Hobson

    I should add, that it may not be for everyone... and I have not lived nor loved enough to know if it is for me either.

      #5.13 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 7:52 PM EDT
      Jason Ford

      It does have to do with what you condone, if it has to do with what you believe, unless there's a discrepency between the two (is there?),

      Assume that I am all for single women getting pregnant with no intent of having anything to with the father. If the facts bear out that two parents are better than one it wouldn't change my opinion of single women having children.

      I don't know that I believe this "women can/men can't/vice versa" proposition,

      There is no way possible that my wife can give things from a man's perspective nor can I give my children advice from a woman's perspective. Yes, other men or women could conceivably come in and give this advice but they would not share it with the same love that a mother or father would.

      • 3 votes
      #5.14 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:24 PM EDT
      Glinda

      In fact the one woman (mom) + one man (dad) + kids = family is not the norm for humans, although we tend to think it is. Over all of human history, men were frequently away at war or hunting, or as a result of those activities away permanently, ie. dead. The majority of women spent long hours working in the fields or factories, not at home baking pies and kissing booboos.

      Children were cared for by grannies, aunties, neighbours and older siblings as needed, and probably benefited from a fair share of healthy neglect. If possible, a mother in any situation would be wise to integrate as much of an extended 'family' into her child's life - the benefits to mother and child are many.

      Unfortunately, divorce rates are not dropping. So women need to be realistic - there is a very good chance of being a single mom either by choice or otherwise. I would discourage any woman from becoming pregnant unless she is quite sure she has the capacity to support that child with or without her spouse, even if she is currently happy in a relationship.

      • 9 votes
      #5.15 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:04 PM EDT
      Battle Ax

      There is no way possible that my wife can give things from a man's perspective nor can I give my children advice from a woman's perspective. Yes, other men or women could conceivably come in and give this advice but they would not share it with the same love that a mother or father would.

      I don't see it as an issue of love -- and I never challenged Louise Sloan's love for her baby. (I don't know her so how could I? And, yes, the picture is adorable. Why shouldn't it be?)

      My point is (and was) that we all are a product of two people. That is nature's design. Sometimes nature takes one (or both) of those people away, it's true. But that does not mean we should intentionally undermine the basic concept that we are all a product of two individuals.

      • 3 votes
      #5.16 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:54 AM EDT
      Brenda Mayer

      But that does not mean we should intentionally undermine the basic concept that we are all a product of two individuals.

      While I basically agree with you on this, some people take this idea to the next level by offensively and wrongly declaring that women shouldn't, under any circumstances, raise their children by themselves. Yes, the odds are against a single parent of either gender, but it can be done successfully. My brother is a single custodial father to two great boys and I raised my daughter myself until age 6.

      • 4 votes
      #5.17 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:51 AM EDT
      Dances With Younger Ladies

      I think women should run the world. So why shouldn't they raise their kids?

      • 4 votes
      #5.18 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:32 PM EDT
      allgood2

      My point is (and was) that we all are a product of two people. That is nature's design. Sometimes nature takes one (or both) of those people away, it's true. But that does not mean we should intentionally undermine the basic concept that we are all a product of two individuals.

      Most life (not all), across kingdoms, is a product of two beings, but nature's design does not always have both parents raising their offspring. There are numerous example where just the mother is responsible, or the mother in her clan, where the mother kills the father after mating, the father is responsible, etc., etc. I always find it interesting what human's attribute to natures design. Nature's design is wildly diverse. All the things we take for granted, as expectations for proper child rearing now where non-existent just a mere 100-200 years ago.

      From baby rearing to schooling to work to marrying them off to children having children—the norms change from pretty rapidly (for that type of thing, 50-100 years for major distinctions). And just as we now state that children need to be cared for until 18 or beyond, well protected, not have sex until after 17 or 18, etc., etc. That's all brand new, its not supported by history, and yet the population at large hasn't stopped growing.

      By nature's design can be loosely translated back to some sort of religious, spiritual or philosophical belief, but rarely back to science—not even when you limit the playing field to "just humans".

      • 5 votes
      #5.19 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:54 PM EDT
      Reply
      beverlyhi

      Some men are going to be more of problem than a support system. I'd rather start out on the right foot than discover when it's too late that I was alone the whole time.

      • 6 votes
      Reply#6 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 12:59 PM EDT
      Roan

      Yes, I guess, and some women are going to be more of a problem than a nursemaid.

      If you only view the potential father of your child as a support system, I would suggest that you neither get married nor have children.

      • 2 votes
      #6.1 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 10:50 PM EDT
      Reply
      Chasing

      So two people are better than one. OK. Three must be even better then, logically. Or four. Right?

      Do you think single moms live in a vacuum? They probably have others involved - community, schools, friends, family. Having a father around probably would make things "easier" - but life isn't always easy, and is never "perfect". Not even with two parents.

      If I want a kid, but can't find an appropriate partner, should I then not have one? I don't think so.

      Moreover, I think you vastly overestimate the "blending" going on in dual-parent homes: I was raised by my mother. Sure, my Dad was around (still is), but the parenting decisions? All her. Worked out fine for us.

      • 11 votes
      Reply#7 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:22 PM EDT
      Tania Meredith

      Thank you, Chasing! A voice of reason here at last.

      • 1 vote
      #7.1 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:29 PM EDT
      Reply
      Jan Erlfinger

      No book is going to make people go out and get pregnant ... it happens no matter what. I think it's positive that if someone's made up their mind to go in that direction, there's a resource out there.

      • 2 votes
      Reply#8 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:46 PM EDT
      Rite Of Piracy

      So why not a book to help out people who have already decided to do something else stupid? Like rob a bank?

      Okay, just kidding.

      • 2 votes
      #8.1 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:14 PM EDT
      Battle Ax

      I agree with Rite of Piracy. Up until the "just kidding" part.

      • 1 vote
      #8.2 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:36 PM EDT
      Angel_C

      Jan, I expect there ARE books on how to rob a bank--somewhere. (I'm too tired to go searching tonight.) But the image that popped up for me was Abbie Hoffman's book "Steal this book"....

      It must be bedtime...yawn.

      • 1 vote
      #8.3 - Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:25 AM EDT
      Reply
      Programmer1964

      Lesbians rejoice! No man needed! Oh wait how can you get pregnant w/o a man? someone has to donate a seed!

      • 1 vote
      Reply#9 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:50 PM EDT
      middleground1

      Yeah, but seeds don't make you watch ESPN

      • 3 votes
      #9.1 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:54 PM EDT
      Angel_C

      Programmer...Lesbians have known this for a long time--nothing new there....LOL I have two lesbian friends who had two babies using the seed of a gay man friend of theirs....even used a turkey baster....

      • 1 vote
      #9.2 - Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:27 AM EDT
      Reply
      Jim Mirick

      For what it's worth, I read a health article in a journal about 2 years ago about studies that were done on parenting styles, especially I believe in the case of lesbian couples. What they found was that with two parents, one tends to be "nurturing" and the other "challenging," and both are necessary for the child's health and growth. In our culture, of course, the mom is the nurturing one. In lesbian couples with children, without any thinking or deciding about it, the two would slide into the two styles.

      Scenario: Willow bangs herself up playing soccer.

      Mom says: "oh dear, are you OK, does it hurt, you're going to be OK, sit down for a minute and rest."

      Dad says: "are you still alive? Good, then pick yourself up and get back out there, your team needs you. And learn how to do it right, for gosh sakes!"

      So in a single-parent situation, you're going to miss one of these roles as a consistent input. Sure, somebody else can come in and pinch-hit for dad (or mom), but consistency just isn't there. That's the problem.

      • 6 votes
      Reply#10 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:18 PM EDT
      beeverkleever

      I get your point, but it doesn't take into account the resilience of children. If you have any relatives that grew up in the Depression, you may have heard them mention that they didn't "know they were poor." Likewise, I have a cousin who grew up on foster care and while she doesn't describe it today as a joy-ride, she doesn't recall thinking at the time that her situation put her at a disadvantage. What she needed to learn, she learned. When role models were lacking, she found them through other means.

      Kids are built to survive. All we can do is help them get out of their own way during the process.

      • 4 votes
      #10.1 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:35 PM EDT
      Autumnhaiku

      Nice, beever...

      • 2 votes
      #10.2 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:36 PM EDT
      beeverkleever

      Thanks, Autumn

      • 1 vote
      #10.3 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:38 PM EDT
      Jim Mirick

      True, they will survive, almost all of them. But why make it harder on them than it already is?

      Plus, I point out, a truly single-by-choice is cheating her child out of half of their grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, and everything like that.

      • 3 votes
      #10.4 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:58 PM EDT
      Pamela Drew

      Plus, I point out, a truly single-by-choice is cheating her child out of half of their grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, and everything like that.

      Clearly a different extended family from mine, sparing the child can also be the case. Not everyone is blessed by an abundance of good role models and supportive family members in their lives. Some family are %$#@

      • 5 votes
      #10.5 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:56 PM EDT
      Angel_C

      We can't guarantee a "good" childhood for anyone, even trying to set it up with two decent parents, etc. Sometimes the great heroes, scientists, etc etc, are made by growing up in a challenging situation. We just can't tell the outcomes because too many variables are involved, including the personality of the child. Children are not clay objects which parents and the environment mold into something, thereby having to take all the credit and blame. They come with their own inner programming and are who they are -- I think most will agree that looking at their own children, they showed their traits early on and were much the same at 25 as at 3 or 4.

      • 4 votes
      #10.6 - Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:34 AM EDT
      Reply
      Autumnhaiku

      Joking aside, I think there's a difference in whether you're raising a son or a daughter......as a single mom of a pre-adolescent boy, I have some concerns about this transition that he's about to experience....this coming into his "manhood". It's important, and yet there really aren't any "rituals" in today's Western society (I almost enrolled him in a Yeshiva so he could be Bar Mitzvah'd).

      Girls go through puberty, too, of course....but a different set of issues that I felt more equipped to handle with my daughter.

      • 5 votes
      Reply#11 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:26 PM EDT
      Jim Mirick

      May the Force be with you, and I'm not joking . . .

      • 3 votes
      #11.1 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:32 PM EDT
      Autumnhaiku

      LOL...most of us are forced through puberty!

      • 3 votes
      #11.2 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:35 PM EDT
      Jason Ford

      I have some concerns about this transition that he's about to experience

      My oldest son is 13 and he is unbearable at times. You will have to resist the urge to throttle him on a daily basis. Good luck with that. ;)

      • 6 votes
      #11.3 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:50 PM EDT
      Matthew Brennan

      Here here. I was the youngest of three boys. We caused trouble. My 4 and 10 month old son is a challenge. How to teach him self control?

      Another thing, he's much bigger than kids his age. He wants to play with big kids, but can't keep up. I see it wounding his heart. I know that wounds are coming... I just want to know how to help him deal with it.

      • 5 votes
      #11.4 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:04 PM EDT
      Jim Mirick

      A friend of mine once told me, "adolescence is Nature's way to help you let go." That was a very helpful thought to me, and I had only daughters!

      • 7 votes
      #11.5 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:25 PM EDT
      Matthew Brennan

      That's good. Good way to look at it. It's hard to remember that we exist to help them leave and survive! Sometimes we act like we're training them to live with us forever.

      • 5 votes
      #11.6 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:37 PM EDT
      electricblanket

      In "The Prophet" by K. Ghibran, he talks about how children are the arrow shot forth through time by the parents, who are the instrument of Divine creation (of course he writes it with a lot more eloquence).

      • 5 votes
      #11.7 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:40 PM EDT
      Autumnhaiku

      Gorby:

      I know that wounds are coming... I just want to know how to help him deal with it.

      The "wounds" are all part of the learning and growing process...as you know with your brothers. I think one of the most difficult part of parenting is forcing yourself to step back and observe, when what you want to do is protect. But it's wonderful to see your children's "essence" developing as they learn to handle problems by themselves. He'll come to you for help and comfort when he needs it.

      • 6 votes
      #11.8 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:50 PM EDT
      Brenda Mayer

      Sometimes we act like we're training them to live with us forever.

      You mean we're not?!? They might up and leave me someday?!?

      • 1 vote
      #11.9 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:38 PM EDT
      electricblanket

      My most profound moment (ok, maybe not)...is that children are like miniature people!!!!

      • 3 votes
      #11.10 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:50 PM EDT
      Angel_C

      I was so relieved when my children came through their terrible teens. During that time, I really thought I had lost them forever. Then the day came when I started getting phone calls--Mom, I love you. Mom, how are you? Mom, when can you come see us? Wow--it's great to have grown up children. ;-)

      • 4 votes
      #11.11 - Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:38 AM EDT
      Reply
      WebQuack Studios.

      Ask any adult who grew up without a mother & or the father. They are either messed up, on drugs, in jail, under achievers or at a minimum regret not having the other parent during their lives.

      Not to "knock" women too hard here but, some of you have seriously evolved into deranged bitches.

      Especially the ones who conspire to get knocked up & then divorced for the purpose of becoming a single financially secure single mother.

      • 3 votes
      Reply#12 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 3:36 PM EDT
      Gwenny

      Ask any adult who grew up without a mother & or the father. They are either messed up, on drugs, in jail, under achievers or at a minimum regret not having the other parent during their lives.

      Why don't you ask mine? I would put my sons up against any person their age from a "perfect" family. Intelligent, focused with good jobs. And I raised them almost totally alone, being involved with one loser man after another. We were even on Welfare for awhile. And yet they are both successful men. The eldest has changed jobs only three times in his 13 years of working, most recently to join law enforcement. The youngest, at age 21, is admired and respected by everyone in our community and respect for his skill in his profession. He has been the floor director of my television show for four years. He was president of a Toastmaster Club at age 18.

      Generalizations are dangerous. In my opinion, when a single mother family fails, it is not the lack of a father but the inadequacy of the mother that causes the failure.

      • 8 votes
      #12.1 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:11 PM EDT
      WebQuack Studios.

      But.... A child deserves a chance of both parents if both are stable.... I don't disagree with single mothers for many reasons but, I do disagree with a single mother that plans on a single parent situation planned prior to getting pregnant, it's selfish & unfair.

      Ask your own kids....would you have liked to have had a stable father growing up...I'd be shocked if they said no but, they might just spare your feelings about it anyway.

      • 3 votes
      #12.2 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:20 PM EDT
      Chasing

      Especially, huh? What about the ones who, I don't know, knock over banks, stab homeless people, drown kids, or whatever. Not that I condone what you suggest - this conspiracy of well-to-do-single-motherhood (what, women can't be financially independent on their own?) - but rather to suggest that, seriously, there is far worse a woman can do. Which is to say, far worse anyone can do - women being, you know, people and all.

      • 3 votes
      #12.3 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:22 PM EDT
      Gwenny

      Ask your own kids....would you have liked to have had a stable father growing up...I'd be shocked if they said no but, they might just spare your feelings about it anyway.

      Funny you should say this. I HAVE discussed this with my kids. I have a great deal of guilt around some of the choices I made, like unknowingly marrying a pedophile. On one occasion my youngest son and I were out driving and I said, "I sometimes feel bad that I've never been able to find a man to be a good role model for you." Without missing a beat, which is usually an indication of speaking from the heart, he said, "I didn't need a male role model, I had you." To which I said something flippant about being female and he told me that I was being sexist (!) and what he meant was that what a kid needs is a good role model of a what it is to be a good human being. And I was one of the best human beings he knew.

      And he didn't say it to spare my feelings, he has absolutely no problem pointing out my deficiencies. His favorite endearment is "crazy old woman".

      • 6 votes
      #12.4 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:44 PM EDT
      WebQuack Studios.

      Gwenny I'm sorry what has happened to you & it sounds like you have done very well regardless of the past. That's awesome.

      As for the rest of you gals picking away at pieces of my comments I have no further comment, I know I just can't win with you no matter what position I may have......

      This is the part where I shut up & just let the comment votes decide on my validity.

      Peace.

      WebQuacks Out.

      • 3 votes
      #12.5 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:57 PM EDT
      Pamela Drew

      Ask any adult who grew up without a mother & or the father. They are either messed up, on drugs, in jail, under achievers or at a minimum regret not having the other parent during their lives.

      Wow, ouch and excuse me I have to strongly disagree. It may be that the bulk in jail and on drugs had one parent but one parent is not a sentence to failure. I know, my kiddies lost their dad to leukemia and it was much of their young lives with nonstop illness and crisis and then the rest with me alone and we were left in disasterous circumstances with no family help. See above outlaws vs inlaws in children's lives.

      Children need at least one adult who will protect, nurture, support, listen and love unconditionally. If they can find more than one person to add those things, so much the better but I believe it doesn't matter if it's a grandparent, a foster parent or a single parent, the child will develop the tools for being secure and confident and successful in relation to the effort put into the child, not the number of people who pass through.

      Bill Clinton had a single mom and Adrian Grenier super cutie pie on Entorage is an outspoken advocate for single moms everywhere crediting the struggles his mom had to provide fpor them as an inspiration to him. I'm sure there are oodles more, not the kind of issue I've really ever considered as one to track.

      • 8 votes
      #12.6 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:09 PM EDT
      WebQuack Studios.

      or at a minimum regret not having the other parent during their lives....

      I guess I'm alone on this one......

      • 2 votes
      #12.7 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:28 PM EDT
      biggerthebetter

      It's hard to say. Can you truly regret something you have never had? Maybe you can. I don't know.

      Frankly, had I not had my mother, I would have been better off. But I wouldn't have known that....

      I guess the message here is to be thankful for what you DO have.

      • 5 votes
      #12.8 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:00 PM EDT
      Jim Mirick

      Pamela, you and Gwenny get my total hats-off for your success -- I always thought as a child with a great family, stability and education, encouragement all the way, that somehow I had to work to get through it all -- stories like yours' bring me back to reality in a hurry -- I deserve a good slap. I have no clue.

      It's so easy to forget how truly awful it can be for some people when you're surrounded by such support and emotional riches yourself. It's so easy to say, "why doesn't she just buckle down and pay attention in school . . . " when "she" may be getting beaten up, or be watching her mother get beaten up, or have parents who are so self-absorbed that the kids are dressed absolutely in rags and the parents don't notice, etc.

      Thanks for the reminder about reality.

      • 7 votes
      #12.9 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:00 PM EDT
      Brenda Mayer

      Ask any adult who grew up without a mother & or the father. They are either messed up, on drugs, in jail, under achievers or at a minimum regret not having the other parent during their lives.

      I had both and still wound up being a mentally ill homeless alcoholic. Seriously. My mother grew up without a father and is none of the things you mentioned.

      • 6 votes
      #12.10 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:50 PM EDT
      WebQuack Studios.

      I dunno.... maybe a brother or sister helps through the development process too.... but, I never had one of those either.... so I guess I really can't comment on this seed at all....
      I'm Just an only child who was lucky enough to make it through the 60's til now with a level headed single Dad.

      What if will always be there though......now go knock yourselves up & save your money.

      • 1 vote
      #12.11 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:01 AM EDT
      Brenda Mayer

      now go knock yourselves up

      That would be quite physically impossible.

      • 1 vote
      #12.12 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:54 AM EDT
      biggerthebetter

      Why so bitter, WebQuack?

      • 2 votes
      #12.13 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:05 AM EDT
      allgood2

      Ask any adult who grew up without a mother & or the father. They are either messed up, on drugs, in jail, under achievers or at a minimum regret not having the other parent during their lives.

      Wow! Someone's been watching too many after school specials, Lifetime movies, or listening to conservative think tanks.

      I don't do drugs (never have, not even pot), never been in jail, not too many people would consider me an underachiever, and I don't have many regrets about my family. As far as I'm concern, the way I was raised helped shape who I am, and while I may want to be wealthier, I like who I am.

      • 3 votes
      #12.14 - Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:12 AM EDT
      Reply
      Gwenny

      Life is tough. You do the best you can. Most of my life, when I wasn't wishing I had died when my mom tried to kill me as six weeks old, I have wished she never got me back from the foster home by marrying the convicted murderer who molested me for years.

      But what you going to do? The State of Ohio deemed a former mental patient and a convicted murderer good parents because they were married.

      • 7 votes
      Reply#13 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:08 PM EDT
      Jim Mirick

      OMG. I think every child deserves two parents, but not every "parent" deserves a child. Certainly not those.

      • 5 votes
      #13.1 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:48 PM EDT
      Gwenny

      OMG. I think every child deserves two parents, but not every "parent" deserves a child. Certainly not those.

      Agreed.

      • 4 votes
      #13.2 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:02 PM EDT
      Chum Suet

      I have to agree with you Gwenny - where possible every child should have two parents. I think single women who decide they muct have a child are often very selfish. We all have an urge to have kids but some of us realise its not always an ethical or moral thing to do on you own. What happens if the parent get sick? or they lose their job? Parenting is hard enough with two parents!

      • 4 votes
      #13.3 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:53 PM EDT
      Pamela Drew

      Gwenny I just want to give you a hug, aww that's %$#@#$ and %#@##%^&!! It is so horrid the system fails children so miserably and the very worst of it hit you. Good for you to have made it out and on with a life.xox

      • 5 votes
      #13.4 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:14 PM EDT
      Gwenny

      I was agreeing that not every parent deserves a child. MY stand is that all people should be sterilized at birth and only the best, brightest and most adjusted who can complete at least a Master's level education should be permitted to even consider being a parent. LOL

      • 6 votes
      #13.5 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:16 PM EDT
      Autumnhaiku

      With you all the way, Gwenny...

      • 4 votes
      #13.6 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:23 PM EDT
      biggerthebetter

      Oh, that's horrible. I'm so sorry for that.

      I think so many of us have some kind of story that it's hard for us to go along with the two wonderful parents scenario. Sure, I guess having Mike and Carol Brady would have been great, but we didn't, so for some of us, we are just left wishing one of the parents were NOT there.

      • 4 votes
      #13.7 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:07 PM EDT
      Reply
      Keter

      It is a personal choice to have children, whether married, partnered, single, or whatever status. No one could or should make that decision for someone else. That includes the decision to NOT have children, which often results in bad outcomes if momentarily overridden...

      There are work-arounds for single parents - I invented them and used them when my marriage failed (I had no family, no job, no friends, no money, and no car, so it was really interesting for a while). While not thrilled with the title or attitude, I'm glad to see a book that calls upon women to think through what they are doing. Any woman can end up a single parent, whether they choose that or not, so they should be prepared to be one before they conceive, even if they are convinced their marriage is forever. People die, go insane, change. Life is like that.

      As for using donor sperm...ew. Part of the mating process instinctively tends to select mates whose potentials synergize. While some recessive genetic diseases hide from this process, it is still more likely to result in a child that has the best combination of potentials from both parents than a random draw from a sperm bank.

      • 7 votes
      Reply#14 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 5:39 PM EDT
      WebQuack Studios.

      So can I decide to have a woman artificially inseminated for me so I can be a single Dad? Or can I fly to Africa like Madonna or Jolie to buy one? I seriously doubt it.

      There are some double standards here & it still boils down to the fact that it's unfair & selfish to the un-conceived child.

      • 4 votes
      #14.1 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:07 PM EDT
      biggerthebetter

      Are you seriously blaming women for carrying babies? Blame nature, as pointless as that is.

      • 2 votes
      #14.2 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 9:10 PM EDT
      WebQuack Studios.

      "Are you seriously blaming women for carrying babies? Blame nature, as pointless as that is."

      nope

      • 1 vote
      #14.3 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:05 PM EDT
      Brenda Mayer

      it's unfair & selfish to the un-conceived child.

      Oooooeeeeee--and men never behave unfairly or unselfishly when spreading their seed far and wide.

      • 3 votes
      #14.4 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:58 AM EDT
      biggerthebetter

      Brenda, you have hit the nail on the head. Men who bitch about single mothers seem to forget that means there are an equal number of single fathers, who sure wanted to go around acting like an irresponsible human firehose. Those men are just as much to blame.

        #14.5 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:07 AM EDT
        Wheel

        Men who bitch about single mothers seem to forget that means there are an equal number of single fathers, who sure wanted to go around acting like an irresponsible human firehose.

        actually, I think you'll find that there's a big imbalance between the number of single mothers and fathers. There are a lot of men out there with more than one baby by more than one 'babies momma' that are not involved in rearing any of their children.

          #14.6 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:26 AM EDT
          Reply
          Chum Suet

          Dont get me wrong Im not against single parents in general- I know many extremely good single parents both male and female who have ended up as single parents due to circumstances.

          However, I just think it's extremely selfish of a single person to actively decide to become a single parent, many dont really think through the consequences of such an action and let their need to be a parent override the future needs and rights of the child.

          • 4 votes
          Reply#15 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 6:35 PM EDT
          WebQuack Studios.

          bravo

          • 3 votes
          #15.1 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 8:03 PM EDT
          Reply
          Wheel

          Would it be to obvious to point out that this can all be done with unskilled labor?

          • 1 vote
          Reply#16 - Thu Oct 18, 2007 11:20 PM EDT
          Gwenny

          What the bottom line here is that some folks believe that a woman should be denied the right to have a child . . .simply because the pool of available worthwhile men is so small that most of us have little hope of ever finding one. Right?

          • 3 votes
          #17 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:10 AM EDT
          WebQuack Studios.

          I have a response to this but, I promised myself not to drunk post anymore :) Until tomorrow.

          • 1 vote
          #17.1 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:14 AM EDT
          Gwenny

          I look forward to your reply. I'm disappointed that this didn't get more of a response. :D

            #17.2 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:47 AM EDT
            Robert.Merrill

            Gwenny,

            No, I think that you are making a strawman argument here - the original article was not saying that women do not have the right to be single parents, but that given a choice it is better to part of a larger, stable family.

            Parenting is hard, and given the choice, the more good parents involved the better.

            I also think that in general childhood is hard, and that kids are resilient and some can do well regardless of the environment.

            I think the old sowing seeds analogy applies:

            If you sow a hundred seeds on barren ground, a few will grow into large plants, many will be small and scrubby and most will not grow at all.

            If you sow a hundred seeds in well tilled and tended earth, then most will grow large and do well, a few will be small and some will not grow at all.

            So across a large cross-section of kids and families, all things being equal, more will grow up to be successful, happy adults if they come from an environment with 2 good, loving role models who can tag team on the responsibilities than from families with only 1 or no good role-models.

            • 4 votes
            #17.3 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:47 AM EDT
            Gwenny

            No, I think that you are making a strawman argument here -

            No I'm not. I'm trying to provoke an argument, damn it. LOL

            the original article was not saying that women do not have the right to be single parents, but that given a choice it is better to part of a larger, stable family.

            Then I guess it's a good thing I was referring to the discussion here?

            So across a large cross-section of kids and families, all things being equal, more will grow up to be successful, happy adults if they come from an environment with 2 good, loving role models who can tag team on the responsibilities than from families with only 1 or no good role-models.

            When you find this situation, please let me know. I have not met a couple that worked this way. Marriage is actually a hindrance to being a good mother, based on my own life. In my experience and fervent opinion the nuclear families is one of the greatest travesties of all time! Of all the dysfunctional ideas to crawl half baked out of the belly of mainstream Christianity, this is by far one of the worst.

            To increase the obstacles to healthy, capable women having families by burdening them with the outdated and perverted idea that they need a long term relationship with a man is ludicrous. There simply are not enough men who are capable of being good fathers and husbands for women to wait around or marry some jerk like so many do.

            • 2 votes
            #17.4 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:40 AM EDT
            Jason Ford

            I have not met a couple that worked this way.

            You must not know many people. My parents, both sets of my grandparents, my wife and I, her brother and his wife, my wife's parents, both sets of her grandparents and the majority of my friends who are married.

            • 3 votes
            #17.5 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:06 PM EDT
            electricblanket

            There simply are not enough men who are capable of being good fathers and husbands for women to wait around or marry some jerk like so many do.

            Well, it depends on what men and women want. I would be an excellent father or husband if I wanted to have children. But since I don't want to have children (at this point in my life at least), I'm not going to.

            To increase the obstacles to healthy, capable women having families by burdening them with the outdated and perverted idea that they need a long term relationship with a man is ludicrous.

            Perverted? I mean, my grandparents on both sides were happy with their long-term monogamous relationships. And my parents. Perverted? Huh?

            A man and a woman need to be involved to conceive a child. That they choose to stay together and raise the child together (in some cases) just doesn't seem like a de facto bad situation. Of course there are bad situations (when one or both parents are abusive, etc).

            • 4 votes
            #17.6 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:09 PM EDT
            Roan

            There simply are not enough men who are capable of being good fathers and husbands for women to wait around or marry some jerk like so many do.

            No, it is that there are simply are not enough women who are capable of being good mothers and wives for men to wait around or marry some bitch like so many do.

            Misandry and misogyny are both wrong.

            • 5 votes
            #17.7 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:45 PM EDT
            Brenda Mayer

            My parents, both sets of my grandparents, my wife and I, her brother and his wife, my wife's parents, both sets of her grandparents and the majority of my friends who are married.

            Dang, Jason, how oddly...functional. I don't think I've met that many functional couples in my entire life, let alone be related to them. That's really nice.

            • 3 votes
            #17.8 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:07 PM EDT
            Jason Ford

            Dang, Jason, how oddly...functional. I don't think I've met that many functional couples in my entire life, let alone be related to them. That's really nice.

            Thanks. I should have mentioned my brother and his wife. They don't have kids yet but they do have a great dog so that should count for something.

            • 3 votes
            #17.9 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 1:13 PM EDT
            Gwenny

            You must not know many people. My parents, both sets of my grandparents, my wife and I, her brother and his wife, my wife's parents, both sets of her grandparents and the majority of my friends who are married.

            I know many couples . .and none of them work the way he describes.

            • 2 votes
            #17.10 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:06 PM EDT
            Gwenny

            I would be an excellent father or husband if I wanted to have children.

            IN YOUR OPINION. The pedophile I was married to thought he was a great father. :(

            perverted idea that they need a long term relationship with a man is ludicrous.

            ::rolls eyes:: What was the subject? That women NEED to be married to have children. Please, feel free to brush up on your reading comprehension skills. I don't care what sort of basically unnatural relationships folks devise for their own pleasure, but demanding that children be raised in the dysfunctional "nuclear" family is perverted.

            • 2 votes
            #17.11 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:10 PM EDT
            Gwenny

            Dang, Jason, how oddly...functional. I don't think I've met that many functional couples in my entire life, let alone be related to them. That's really nice.

            WAIT! You are ASSUMING they are functional. Being together for decades is not evidence of functionality. LOL Perhaps what they all share is being too afraid of being alone to get out of bad relationships. I know a couple that has been married for 50 years. They are miserable, but their belief system doesn't permit them to divorce. Thankfully this is becoming less common. But it is still far too common for people to marry badly and not have the strength of character to admit they made a mistake.

            • 2 votes
            #17.12 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:13 PM EDT
            Gwenny

            Misandry and misogyny are both wrong.

            And it has not opened the dialog I had hoped. ::shrugs:: Although it has generated a bit of conversation for this writer. :D (I expect a duce, btw. )

            • 2 votes
            #17.13 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:16 PM EDT
            Gwenny

            (I expect a duce, btw. )

            Supposed to be cut . . I have no clue what my fingers were thinking.

            • 2 votes
            #17.14 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:16 PM EDT
            Jason Ford

            Perhaps what they all share is being too afraid of being alone to get out of bad relationships

            Perhaps you shouldn't worry about the stability of my family. Just because you have had the worst ever life experience doesn't make it hold true for everyone else.

            I have already stated, more than once, that there are times when a single parent is the better option. I know not everyone is lucky enough to have the kind of experience I had when we were growing up. Was it perfect, definitely not. But no relationship is, whether that be a marriage or a parent/child relationship is perfect. Anyone who says they have a perfect relationship is a liar.

            • 6 votes
            #17.15 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:21 PM EDT
            electricblanket

            Ouch, compared to a pedophile because I think I would make a good husband and father if I decided I wanted to be a husband or father. If I knew you, I'd be offended. You seem more interested in attacking my "lack of reading comprehension" than having a reasonable discussion.

            Believe what you want. Not all "nuclear families" are dysfunctional (in my experience). Not all men are pedophiles, and just because some men are not good husbands or fathers does not mean that most are not good husbands or fathers.

            • 4 votes
            #17.16 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 2:32 PM EDT
            Gwenny

            Perhaps you shouldn't worry about the stability of my family.

            I'm not worried about it. I am only pointing out that longevity is not proof of stability OR functionality. I think Middle Eastern countries have the lowest divorce rate in the world. :/ AND, even if stable, does not necessarily fit this description:

            if they come from an environment with 2 good, loving role models who can tag team on the responsibilities than from families with only 1 or no good role-models.

            So you family gets married and stays married. Big deal. That does not mean the children involved get what you seem to think is an advantage because there's a male nominally there. Far too many main stream families are little than single mother household with a second income.

            The problem is INCOME not marital status. The ONLY, and I mean ONLY, reason a married couple could be considered better is because men earn more than women and a couple is likely better resources. This has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with fitness as parents.

            Just because you have had the worst ever life experience doesn't make it hold true for everyone else.

            I've hardly had the worst life ever. But the reverse is true, Jason. Just because you had a relatively untraumatic childhood, according to you, doesn't mean your experience represents even a small majority of people's experience. I can't believe you don't realize the level of suffering that unacceptably high percentages of children endure. 1 in 3 girls is molested by age 16, 90+% of them by family members--and mostly by MALE family members. (1 in 8 boys. . this is just sexual abuse, it does not include other types of abuse.)

            or a parent/child relationship is perfect.

            Nothing is perfect. No.

            • 1 vote
            #17.17 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 3:53 PM EDT
            electricblanket

            1 in 3 girls is molested by age 16, 90+% of them by family members--and mostly by MALE family members. (1 in 8 boys. . this is just sexual abuse, it does not include other types of abuse.)

            This is terrible. Though I think it is important to note that a number of these cases are uncles and brothers and grandfathers (and some of them are cases where the father is the molester).

            • 3 votes
            #17.18 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:06 PM EDT
            Gwenny

            Ouch, compared to a pedophile because I think I would make a good husband and father if I decided I wanted to be a husband or father.

            OMG, I did NOT compare you to a pedophile. I used a pedophile as an example of someone who held delusional beliefs about their abilities. I have a friend who thinks she can sing, but sounds like someone strangling a parrot. Just because a person thinks they could do something does not mean they can.

            If I knew you, I'd be offended.

            If you knew me, you would be laughing.

            You seem more interested in attacking my "lack of reading comprehension" than having a reasonable discussion.

            A reasonable discussion can only take place when everyone involved can communicate. We are not communicating. Intentionally or unintentionally you are misinterpreting what I say.

            Not all "nuclear families" are dysfunctional (in my experience).

            While this is all well and good, why would I possibly want to accept your experience as valid if you refuse to accept MY experience as valid?

            Not all men are pedophiles, and just because some men are not good husbands or fathers does not mean that most are not good husbands or fathers.

            I would go even further. I would say most pedophiles are not really pedophiles. But that is another discussion. As for most men being good husbands or fathers, I disagree. I will concede that there more men who are not BAD, I do not believe a majority are even adequate.

            Of course, I also believe that most people grow up to be decent folks in spite of their parents.

            • 1 vote
            #17.19 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:21 PM EDT
            Gwenny

            This is terrible. Though I think it is important to note that a number of these cases are uncles and brothers and grandfathers (and some of them are cases where the father is the molester).

            You are correct. Although grandfathers ARE parents as well and many uncles have children of their own that they either molest or don't. (For instance, my stepfather never molested his own daughters.) I started looking up stats for you, but the reality is so horrible, the statistics so chilling, that I can bring myself to go on.

            • 1 vote
            #17.20 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:26 PM EDT
            electricblanket

            Intentionally or unintentionally you are misinterpreting what I say.

            Ditto on that.

            • 2 votes
            #17.21 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:42 PM EDT
            Chum Suet

            I dont believe they should be denied the right to a child - I do think some women put their desire for a child above all other consequences and arguments and often behave very selfishly.

              #17.22 - Thu Oct 25, 2007 11:58 AM EDT
              Reply
              JustinPM

              I come from a two parent household and I do believe it helps. I have a lot of respect for single parents, but I don't think I'd wish that upon anyone.

              • 1 vote
              Reply#18 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:11 AM EDT
              Captain Nemo

              If artificial insemination becomes the standard, you will start experiencing the strange problem of random incest. Recommended reading: Homo Faber.

              I am an orphan. There's a whole in your heart , when you do not know your parents, and it does not go away for the rest of your life. You can't fill it with Gebus either. It's just there... nothingness where other people have whatever they have, for good and bad.

              Something to consider before we go all futuristic on procreation.

              • 6 votes
              Reply#19 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 5:25 AM EDT
              Gwenny

              I am an orphan. There's a whole in your heart , when you do not know your parents, and it does not go away for the rest of your life. You can't fill it with Gebus either. It's just there... nothingness where other people have whatever they have, for good and bad.

              My heart goes out to you. I know this is a struggle. I suggest you work through this, though. You can heal!

              • 2 votes
              #19.1 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:46 AM EDT
              Reply
              Mikey

              This trend is scary and devious...women need to stop being selfish and think about the future of their child. Having a baby isn't a fashion accessory, ok? Don't have a child unless you can financially support one...women are just too goddamn picky when it comes to a mate, and think they can have their cake and eat it too.

              • 1 vote
              Reply#20 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:35 AM EDT
              Brenda Mayer

              devious

              Sounds sinister. How is this trend "devious"?

              women need to stop being selfish and think about the future of their child

              Now there's a novel idea. None of us single moms have ever considered this. Thank you for pointing it out! Future generations shall thank you.

              Having a baby isn't a fashion accessory, ok?

              It's not?!? But the infant vomit coordinates so well with a variety of tops. And nothing screams "style" as much as baby poop on khakis.

              women are just too goddamn picky when it comes to a mate

              Uh, no. Being entirely not picky enough gets many of us into the whole single mother situation. Settling for the first loser who comes along is a big part of the problem.

              • 7 votes
              #20.1 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:09 AM EDT
              biggerthebetter

              "picky when it comes to a mate". LMAO, so your solution, which you t hink is BETTER than single momhood, is to have women marry any piece of *&&^ guy that can knock her up? LOL LOL LOL

              Oh, and how about all of the selfish men donating sperm for cash? Women couldn't go to sperm banks if there weren't hordes of men willing to create fatherless babies.

              • 2 votes
              #20.2 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:10 AM EDT
              Gwenny

              Oh, and how about all of the selfish men donating sperm for cash? Women couldn't go to sperm banks if there weren't hordes of men willing to create fatherless babies.

              Forget the ones donating for money. All the legions of the jerks spewing their semen all over the place, unprotected, expecting the recipient to be responsible for the results. In fact, given a choice, I suspect that most men would prefer to produce fatherless children. Only social convention and law keeps them from doing it because . . . .well, in a lot of primate cultures that's just how it's done.

              • 3 votes
              #20.3 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:49 AM EDT
              Dances With Younger Ladies

              Don't have a child unless you can financially support one

              I doubt most "single moms by choice" have neglected to consider the financial part. In fact, the ones who use anonymous donors and artificial insemination can spend a lot of money getting pregnant. Why would you ever think they haven't considered how much it costs to raise a kid?

              • 3 votes
              #20.4 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:38 PM EDT
              Roan

              All the legions of the jerks spewing their semen all over the place, unprotected, expecting the recipient to be responsible for the results. In fact, given a choice, I suspect that most men would prefer to produce fatherless children.

              Wow.

              I suspect most women have unprotected sex in an attempt to entrap a man to provide a support system for them.

              Like you, I am wrong.

              • 3 votes
              #20.5 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:50 PM EDT
              Gwenny

              I suspect most women have unprotected sex in an attempt to entrap a man to provide a support system for them.

              *I* suspect most women have unprotected sex because getting many men to use a condom is like pulling hens teeth. LOL Even if you negotiate condom use in advance, they still try to sneak in without it.

              • 3 votes
              #20.6 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 4:34 PM EDT
              Roan

              In my experience, trying to get a woman to allow a man to use a condom is like pulling hens teeth, because they are more interested in the 'feel' than safety. However I am not short-sighted enough to think that my my experiences are representative of women in general.

              If I were to judge all women by my ex-girlfriends, I would have to be of the opinion that all women are nothing but worthless, money-hungry whores. Fortunately, that is not my opinion.

              • 2 votes
              #20.7 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:01 PM EDT
              Mikey

              I'd defend my post, but won't waste my time for just one vote...heh..

              • 2 votes
              #20.8 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:21 PM EDT
              Gwenny

              If I were to judge all women by my ex-girlfriends, I would have to be of the opinion that all women are nothing but worthless, money-hungry whores.

              This gives me pause. What sort of man only attracts that sort of woman? Hmmm

              Fortunately, that is not my opinion.

              LOL I'm not sure your opinion is going to matter to any woman you persist in childishly one upping over an obvious hyperbole.

              • 3 votes
              #20.9 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:39 PM EDT
              Jason Ford

              This gives me pause. What sort of man only attracts that sort of woman? Hmmm

              How many worthless husbands have you had? Hmmm

              • 3 votes
              #20.10 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:08 PM EDT
              Wheel

              Q. Where have all the good men gone?

              A. They're wherever all the good women are, it's interesting that you don't know where that is.

              • 1 vote
              #20.11 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:23 PM EDT
              Brenda Mayer

              OK, I'll interrupt this bashing streak here. I was involved with a string of creeps and I didn't stop choosing creeps until I worked on what it was within myself that found them in any way acceptable. It took years of therapy, literally. It wasn't my fault that they were creeps, but it was my responsibility for choosing to be with them.

              To make a long story short, I finally got married for the first time at age 35 to a man who is a saint. He is an excellent step-father to my daughter from a previous relationship and father to our 15 month old son. He's not only an amazing man, he's an amazing human being.

              • 6 votes
              #20.12 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 10:15 PM EDT
              Mikey

              Brenda, what I should have mentioned in my first post: women will pick losers if that is what will match their personality, as you have said (I'm not calling you one.) Thanks for that. Then they complain on why they can't find "a good man." I have a lot more to say but I'll stop it right there.

              Also what I meant by "devious" I actually meant "divisive." I was tired...

              Any who, I just agree with the poster..I guess I am old-fashioned too.

              • 3 votes
              #20.13 - Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:19 AM EDT
              Roan

              This gives me pause. What sort of man only attracts that sort of woman? Hmmm

              What sort of women marries a paedophile? Hmmm?

              LOL I'm not sure your opinion is going to matter to any woman you persist in childishly one upping over an obvious hyperbole.

              I feel the same about a woman whose opinion is that the majority of men are nothing but a bunch of irresponsible, misogynist, jerks. You claim hyperbole, yet your numerous comments shout misandry.

              • 4 votes
              #20.14 - Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:19 AM EDT
              Reply
              Serenity78

              I agree with what I think Battle Ax's main point is. If a woman thinks she can do it alone and that it's fair to the baby, then that's her choice, but I do think that she also needs to consider that every child deserves to know his or her father if at all possible. That's just my opinion. You can take it or leave it. Doesn't matter to me.

              • 3 votes
              Reply#21 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:10 PM EDT
              Louise Sloan

              Hi, I'm Louise, the single mom in question. I just discovered this discussion on google. Lots of interesting points! The critical among you will find many of your concerns addressed in my book, if you should choose to actually read it! As for you, Ms. Battle Ax, your questions are good ones, and ones that I asked myself. My dad died when I was only 22 months old, and I sure wish I'd known him, and I wanted my child to know his dad. If you read my book, you'll see that I gave a lot of thought to that issue (and so did most other single moms)! I have a whole chapter titled "The Daddy Question." There's also a section on what to tell your kid, and the results some research studies on kids who have donor fathers (and no "social father"). You might find it interesting. It's an important issue, and I'd just like to state for the record that I think fatherhood is seriously undervalued in this country, and hands-on fathers deserve more respect and encouragement. In fact, fatherhood might be the subject of my next book!

              • 10 votes
              Reply#22 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:04 PM EDT
              Brenda Mayer

              Hi Louise,

              It's pretty neat that you found our discussion. Apparently there are no easy answers. After considering it this afternoon, I tend to think that the women who are good responsible mothers will be good responsible mothers regardless of the circumstances, despite it being considerably more difficult when single (I've done it both ways). Even though fathers are extremely important, the fact of the matter is that I know several people who may have been better off without theirs. My step-father grew up without his father because he died and he turned out to be a wonderful man and great husband to my mother.

              • 8 votes
              #22.1 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 6:49 PM EDT
              Jason Ford

              Hi, I'm Louise, the single mom in question.

              Thanks for responding.

              • 4 votes
              #22.2 - Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:09 PM EDT
              Mikey

              I don't think you should write anything on fatherhood, especially since you're promoting single motherhood. That doesn't sound hypocritical now doesn't it? You don't have the right. Go fall off a cliff. Hope you sell a lot of books.

              • 2 votes
              #22.3 - Sat Oct 20, 2007 12:30 AM EDT
              Jason Ford

              Go fall off a cliff.

              Hey Mikey, great way to treat a new user. Ease up and re-read the CoH.

              • 6 votes
              #22.4 - Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:44 PM EDT
              Mikey

              You're right on the CoH, but, I doubt she signed up for anything on Newsvine except to promote her book. I'd be surprised to see her participate any further than what you see here.

              • 2 votes
              #22.5 - Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:56 PM EDT
              lhornung

              So, women who think single-motherhood is OK, can't talk about fathers? Grow up, Mikey.

              • 3 votes
              #22.6 - Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:24 PM EDT
              Mikey

              When they're encouraging single-motherhood they have absolutely no right to talk about fatherhood. Its like a guy trying to write a book on child birth. Make sense?

              • 2 votes
              #22.7 - Mon Oct 22, 2007 5:34 PM EDT
              lhornung

              No, it doesn't.

              • 1 vote
              #22.8 - Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:22 AM EDT
              lhornung

              In fact, I'd say that most single mothers know a lot about fathers. Probably more than most.

                #22.9 - Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:22 AM EDT
                Roan

                Yes, of course, and most single fathers know a lot about mothers. Probably more than most.

                Assuming the author had a father growing up, that is likely the extent of her knowledge regarding fatherhood. The same as the majority of other single women. Definitely not a subject matter expert, and hardly sufficient to justify someone else taking advice from her regarding the subject.

                I am a man, who had a father growing up, but it was only until I myself became a father did I begin to grasp what being a father means. Producing offspring makes you a mother or father in the literal sense only. The lifelong journey you can then choose to undertake after that fact, is what molds you into a mother or father.

                • 3 votes
                #22.10 - Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:58 PM EDT
                Reply
                Louise Sloan

                OK, thanks, Mikey! I didn't realize that being a single mom necessarily meant being anti-dad, but glad you set me straight! Actually, your negativity ain't got nothing on the folks at salon.com. Wow! Check out some of the mean comments posted after my Q& A there!

                • 5 votes
                Reply#23 - Sat Oct 20, 2007 2:46 PM EDT
                Battle Ax

                Louise: Glad to have you on this thread. My apologies that some 'viners are treating you disrespectfully. Truthfully, much as I don't approve of your choices, I have to admire your courage.

                • 4 votes
                #23.1 - Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:09 PM EDT
                Reply
                Serenity78

                I agree Mikey. Just because someone has a different viewpoint than you do doesn't give you the right to badmouth them like that.

                • 3 votes
                Reply#24 - Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:02 PM EDT
                Mikey

                She's obviously a troll trying to promote her book on Newsvine. I believe that's #3 on the CoH. At least I admitted it. I just hope there are people on NV that don't wet their pants when someone says "go fall off a cliff," I can think of worse things to say.

                I'm done wasting time on this.

                • 2 votes
                #24.1 - Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:32 PM EDT
                Jason Ford

                I believe that's #3 on the CoH

                Okay Mikey. Now your just being stupid. She did not seed her own stuff which is what CoH 3 refers to. She ran across this discussion on google and you can see that she just signed up as a user of Newsvine.

                I'm done wasting time on this.

                I think you meant you're done wasting everyone else's time.

                • 4 votes
                #24.2 - Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:12 PM EDT
                Mikey

                ...and she hasn't participated at all beyond this thread. Look at her username. Hey you just called me stupid, better ease up and re-read the CoH.

                Wasting everyone else's time? I'm not forcing anyone to reply!

                • 1 vote
                #24.3 - Tue Oct 23, 2007 1:23 AM EDT
                kymlee

                Interesting that you think she's here to promote her book Mikey when she didn't post a link or even the title. I like when authors of articles being discussed on Newsvine pop by to contribute to the discussion. It adds value and as long as they respect the CoH, I see no reason to assume they are here to violate it. We all find the community in different ways, so what if one of those ways happens to be through an ego search ;-).

                I don't think the CoH is intended to keep people from ever mentioning that they authored something or what they do in passing, it is intended to weed out spammers. Taking it to the extreme will keep people from being themselves and I personally like that people seem to be themselves here on Newsvine.

                • 5 votes
                #24.4 - Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:06 PM EDT
                Battle Ax

                I welcome Ms. Sloan's contributions to this thread. And I'm the author of the original article, so there.

                • 5 votes
                #24.5 - Wed Oct 24, 2007 4:59 PM EDT
                Mikey

                And I'm glad to see she's made more contributions here lately. Oh yeah she hasn't...but hey its great for your vineacity, yeah?

                • 3 votes
                #24.6 - Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:06 PM EDT
                Battle Ax

                I thought you were done wasting time on this, Mikey.

                • 2 votes
                #24.7 - Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:47 AM EDT
                Reply
                Louise Sloan

                Wow, go away for a couple days and people talk about me behind my back! Well, Mikey, you STILL don't have anything on some of the meanies on salon.com. YES, I joined just to comment on this thread! I'd never heard of grapevine before and I found you guys because I was googling my book title. But you're right, I'm totally slacking in the self-promotion department.

                Go to my website, same name as my book, Knock Yourself Up, and it's a .com. There you'll find more info and links to the latest media coverage of my book. Today was the NY Daily News. Terrible picture of Scott and me. He'd kept me up all night--another tooth, I think--and I was exhausted and he kept falling asleep even though it wasn't his usual naptime. Anyway, visit my site, tell your friends, and buy the book so Scott can go to a really good college! (Seriously, I have been told it's an enjoyable read even if you're not interested in becoming a single mom.)

                Let me also say, as I do in the book, that I encourage anyone who doesn't want kids NOT TO HAVE THEM!!! There is far too much pressure on people to have kids and it is really not for everyone. Kids really suffer (and so do their parents) when people who don't really have kids cave to social pressure and have them anyway.

                By the way, not all single moms agree, but I personally think two parents IS the ideal. But only if the two parents are both GOOD parents, and their relationship is a stable, loving one. Alas, doesn't seem to happen as often as people (including me) fantasize that it does. We all know perfect-seeming nuclear families that turned out to be terribly damaging environments for kids.

                • 4 votes
                Reply#25 - Thu Nov 1, 2007 11:12 PM EDT
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